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	<title>Comments on: Our Histories, Ourselves [2]</title>
	<atom:link href="http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/</link>
	<description>Philosophy, Politics, Religion, Etc.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 17:32:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Micah Tillman</title>
		<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-832</link>
		<dc:creator>Micah Tillman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-832</guid>
		<description>Hmmm . . . . So you don't think the first picture is good enough for Hegel's view? 

Hmmm . . . . Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis. It's at the Synthesis stage that the next level is attained, so perhaps a better version of the Hegelian upward line would look like stairs?

Show me what you mean about the floral design when you get home. My brain can't see it yet. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm . . . . So you don&#8217;t think the first picture is good enough for Hegel&#8217;s view? </p>
<p>Hmmm . . . . Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis. It&#8217;s at the Synthesis stage that the next level is attained, so perhaps a better version of the Hegelian upward line would look like stairs?</p>
<p>Show me what you mean about the floral design when you get home. My brain can&#8217;t see it yet. :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Wife</title>
		<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-831</link>
		<dc:creator>Wife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-831</guid>
		<description>Oooh, hubsand made pretty pictures.

What about the Hegelian dialectical view of history? I want to see the jagged line of progress! *looks fussy* Dialectical!!!!! Materialism!!!

(if you put the drawing of apocalyptic Chty next to the one of redemption history, they kind of make that floral petal design you were remarking on yesterday.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oooh, hubsand made pretty pictures.</p>
<p>What about the Hegelian dialectical view of history? I want to see the jagged line of progress! *looks fussy* Dialectical!!!!! Materialism!!!</p>
<p>(if you put the drawing of apocalyptic Chty next to the one of redemption history, they kind of make that floral petal design you were remarking on yesterday.)</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-826</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:56:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-826</guid>
		<description>Oh, trust me, I've already been there.  I didn't get as deep into the site as you did, but I read plenty.

Had I merely seen Micah's mention of them and been able to resist the urge to Google them, things would have been much better.

It's still Micah's fault though.  He shattered my blissful ignorance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, trust me, I&#8217;ve already been there.  I didn&#8217;t get as deep into the site as you did, but I read plenty.</p>
<p>Had I merely seen Micah&#8217;s mention of them and been able to resist the urge to Google them, things would have been much better.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s still Micah&#8217;s fault though.  He shattered my blissful ignorance.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Stevens</title>
		<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-825</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-825</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link on Crichton.  Now that I've read it, I think he is where I originally picked up the "meme" (to use a Dawkinsian expression), because a lot of the language sounds familiar to me, so I'm pretty sure I've read it before.

By the way, Scott, you should definitely check out &lt;a href="http://www.vhemt.org/" rel="nofollow"&gt;www.vhemt.org&lt;/a&gt;.  My favorite bit was an "intelligence test" where they ask "In light of the 40,000 children dying of malnutrition each day, and considering the number of species going extinct as a result of our excessive reproduction, do you think it would be a good idea to create another of yourself?"  If you answer yes, you get "We're sorry, your intelligence is not high enough to perform basic logic.  Thank you for trying.  Please consider the many options to creating 'one of your own.'"  If you answer no, you get "Congratulations!  You're smart enough to pass on your genes.  Thanks for not doing so."

Note the presence of my current hobbyhorse, the unthinking equation of intellect with moral worth.  (Even though, paradoxically, they believe the most intelligent species, humans, is the least valuable.)  Also note the breathtaking ignorance and lack of ability to perform simple logic which is present throughout the site and the even more breathtaking arrogance about their own (fairly unimpressive) intellects.  These folks give Nietzsche a run for his money for most undeserved egomania.

By the by, whether the Left is more correct than the Right in this country or vice versa, I have no idea.  (I've argued before on this site that I think both views come about through epistemic irrationality.)  I do think that the Right is likely to have at least a temporary victory in a generation or two, though, through outbreeding their opposition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link on Crichton.  Now that I&#8217;ve read it, I think he is where I originally picked up the &#8220;meme&#8221; (to use a Dawkinsian expression), because a lot of the language sounds familiar to me, so I&#8217;m pretty sure I&#8217;ve read it before.</p>
<p>By the way, Scott, you should definitely check out <a href="http://www.vhemt.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.vhemt.org</a>.  My favorite bit was an &#8220;intelligence test&#8221; where they ask &#8220;In light of the 40,000 children dying of malnutrition each day, and considering the number of species going extinct as a result of our excessive reproduction, do you think it would be a good idea to create another of yourself?&#8221;  If you answer yes, you get &#8220;We&#8217;re sorry, your intelligence is not high enough to perform basic logic.  Thank you for trying.  Please consider the many options to creating &#8216;one of your own.&#8217;&#8221;  If you answer no, you get &#8220;Congratulations!  You&#8217;re smart enough to pass on your genes.  Thanks for not doing so.&#8221;</p>
<p>Note the presence of my current hobbyhorse, the unthinking equation of intellect with moral worth.  (Even though, paradoxically, they believe the most intelligent species, humans, is the least valuable.)  Also note the breathtaking ignorance and lack of ability to perform simple logic which is present throughout the site and the even more breathtaking arrogance about their own (fairly unimpressive) intellects.  These folks give Nietzsche a run for his money for most undeserved egomania.</p>
<p>By the by, whether the Left is more correct than the Right in this country or vice versa, I have no idea.  (I&#8217;ve argued before on this site that I think both views come about through epistemic irrationality.)  I do think that the Right is likely to have at least a temporary victory in a generation or two, though, through outbreeding their opposition.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-824</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-824</guid>
		<description>I suppose I could just be thankful that these people are voluntarily removing themselves from the gene pool.

I feel as though they should receive some sort of special Darwin award for their efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose I could just be thankful that these people are voluntarily removing themselves from the gene pool.</p>
<p>I feel as though they should receive some sort of special Darwin award for their efforts.</p>
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		<title>By: micahtillman</title>
		<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-823</link>
		<dc:creator>micahtillman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-823</guid>
		<description>Crichton: &lt;a href="http://www.michaelcrichton.net/speech-environmentalismaseligion.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Environmentalism as Religion&lt;/a&gt;.

Never read it, but heard it summarized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crichton: <a href="http://www.michaelcrichton.net/speech-environmentalismaseligion.html" rel="nofollow">Environmentalism as Religion</a>.</p>
<p>Never read it, but heard it summarized.</p>
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		<title>By: micahtillman</title>
		<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-822</link>
		<dc:creator>micahtillman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-822</guid>
		<description>Environmentalism as a religion has been dealt with by Michael Crichton specifically. From what I've heard of what he has to say, he's right. And I've heard many people use the metaphor of selling carbon offsets/credits as the selling of indulgences.

I shall label your view of history the "stock-market view." I like it. Lots of ups and downs but generally trending up.

And you're right about the modernists not necessarily seeing history as going up forever. Many (for instance Hegel) thought/think history levels off (essentially: comes to an end, since development stops) eventually, when things have reached their highest point. 

Once pure mind is reached, once universal peace and rationality are achieved, we have hit eternal paradise, in which there is nowhere further to go. It's an attractive view in many ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Environmentalism as a religion has been dealt with by Michael Crichton specifically. From what I&#8217;ve heard of what he has to say, he&#8217;s right. And I&#8217;ve heard many people use the metaphor of selling carbon offsets/credits as the selling of indulgences.</p>
<p>I shall label your view of history the &#8220;stock-market view.&#8221; I like it. Lots of ups and downs but generally trending up.</p>
<p>And you&#8217;re right about the modernists not necessarily seeing history as going up forever. Many (for instance Hegel) thought/think history levels off (essentially: comes to an end, since development stops) eventually, when things have reached their highest point. </p>
<p>Once pure mind is reached, once universal peace and rationality are achieved, we have hit eternal paradise, in which there is nowhere further to go. It&#8217;s an attractive view in many ways.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Stevens</title>
		<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-820</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-820</guid>
		<description>By the way, I agree with the first arrow.  But I would make it more jagged.  There are lots of periods of backslides and recoveries present in the historical record.  Moreover, I don't think the modernists ever believed that the arrow just continues going up for forever, though that's a possibility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, I agree with the first arrow.  But I would make it more jagged.  There are lots of periods of backslides and recoveries present in the historical record.  Moreover, I don&#8217;t think the modernists ever believed that the arrow just continues going up for forever, though that&#8217;s a possibility.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Stevens</title>
		<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-817</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-817</guid>
		<description>It is the logical consequence.  It's a very good thing they exist since they point out the central absurdity of extreme environmentalism.  By the way, has anyone considered environmentalism as secular Christianity?  Pollution is Original Sin.  We must expiate our sin with sacrifices and self-flagellation.  Etc., etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is the logical consequence.  It&#8217;s a very good thing they exist since they point out the central absurdity of extreme environmentalism.  By the way, has anyone considered environmentalism as secular Christianity?  Pollution is Original Sin.  We must expiate our sin with sacrifices and self-flagellation.  Etc., etc.</p>
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		<title>By: micahtillman</title>
		<link>http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-815</link>
		<dc:creator>micahtillman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://micahtillman.com/2007/11/20/our-histories-ourselves-2/#comment-815</guid>
		<description>*grin* Sorry. 

It does seem to be the logical consequence of the idea that humans are the only unnatural species.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*grin* Sorry. </p>
<p>It does seem to be the logical consequence of the idea that humans are the only unnatural species.</p>
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